DonkeyKong DC5
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm
heb nu et 42 18 inch, tuurlijk steekt dat meer uit....logisch..dus het word sowieso minder. alles behalve oem steekt er verder uit......ook logisch
heb nog wel wat info voor jullie mensen kan je ff lezen
Since low offset wheels seems to be the latest craze, here's a lil guide to offsets. Wrote this up mainly because I couldn't find a comprehensive article on the net about offsets. Those that want a quick fitment guide can just scroll down. Brought my post over with some changes.
Definition: The offset of a wheel is the distance from its hub mounting surface to the centerline of the wheel. The German prefix "ET", or "Einpresstiefe" is used, which simply means offset in German. ET45 (stock Civic) would be a 45mm offset.
Positive Offset: Hub mounting surface is towards the outside of the wheel.
Zero Offset: Hub mounting surface is at the centerline of the wheel.
Negative Offset: Hub mounting surface is towards the suspension of the car past the centerline, creating a deep dish effect.
There are two main issues for wheel clearance:
1) Lower offset: hitting the fender wall. This is what people usually mean when they "rub." Rubbing typically occurs when the wheel/tire is too flush to the fender (or sticking out). This happens when wheel is too low in offset, but also with wider wheels. When the suspension is compressed, the tire brushes against the inside fender wall instead of sinking into the wheel well. Slight rubbing won't kill your tires, but major rubbing will cut and damage your tires.
2) Higher offset: hitting the suspension. You run the risk of having your tires hit the suspension in two ways: too high of an offset and/or too wide of a wheel. The higher the offset, the more the wheel looks "sunken in." And as you go wider in wheel width (while maintaining same offset), the wheel gets closer and closer to the suspension.
I partially disagree with Tirerack's tech article, which says that ideal offset changes with wider wheels: barring clearance problems, the same offset should be maintained, regardless of wheel width. But keeping the same offset as you get wider wheels becomes difficult: the edges of the wheel get closer towards both the suspension and also towards the outside of the car. Since relocating suspension takes some work, this is why people go lower offset to fit wider wheels (which solves suspension clearance issues).
Adjusting wheel offset
Decreasing offset: Wheel spacers: Wheel spacers can only decrease offset. Make sure they're hub-centered, as universal spacers can wear out your bearings and suspension quicker. With a spacer your wheel studs will be shorter, and you'll likely have to invest in extended wheel studs to compensate as well.
Increasing offset: Shaving the back of the wheel hub: You have to be careful with this one, as shaving too much from the back of the wheel compromises the wheel's integrity. With a reputable shop, you can maybe increase the offset by 2-3mm by having them grind down the mounting surface of the wheel. This in general shouldn't be done unless absolutely necessary, however.
Pros and Cons of Lower Offset
1) Looks prettier: Lower offset either creates more a concave look (think M5 BMW wheels), or deep dish look. This is why most change offset, to create that dish/concave look, or to also make the wheels more flush with the fender, making it look more "aggressive." Wider wheels also help to create the look.
2) Scrub radius changes, causing more steering kickback: Scrub radius is the distance between the extended centerline of the steering axis and the centerline of the tire where the tread contacts the road.
For FWD cars the scrub radius is typically negative, meaning steering centerline is outboard of the of the centerline. In the case of lower offsets, this makes the scrub radius more inboard--in other words, the radius moves toward the inside of the car.
On race cars, it's better for the scrub radius to be positive, as it provides more tactile road feedback. So does this mean lower offsets are better? Not always with the Civic, because it's FWD. FWD cars generate more torque steer with positive scrub radius. BUT with the Si it's somewhat of a moot point--the Si comes with LSD, which minimizes torque steer from lower offsets. So without an LSD, very low offsets can be bad, whereas with the Si it's mostly beneficial.
3) Lower offsets put more wear on your bearings: Changing the offset changes the load displacement, and as such it could be wearing down your bearings with a dramatically different offset. I know WRX's have been known for weak bearings, but there's really not much info on the FA5/FG2 as far as what the limits are. Only time will tell.
4) Lower offsets throw off suspension geometry: A lower offset means you're effectively increasing the lever arm, which alters how your suspension responds to the road. That also changes ideal spring/dampening rates.
5) Tramlining: This actually occurs in general with stickier and wider tires, but lower offsets means your steering will tend to lock on to grooves in the road.
6) Increased track: On the plus side, lower offset means you have a wider track. Track is the distance between the centerline of the left and right wheels. Wider track brings more stability esp. in the twisties. Wider track effectively reduces the wheel rate, which will need to be compensated with increased spring rates. BUT a Mac strut suspension has almost a 1:1 wheel to spring rate (VS a Double wishbone with a ~0.85) This means that the Wheel rate decrease due to track width increase on a MAC strut will be less than what you will see with a double wishbone setup. So wider track on a MAC strut setup is pretty effective.
7) Super jumbo Big Brake Kit: Really, a +40 or +42 and 8" is all you need to fit most BBKs (Rotara, Wilwood, Stoptech, etc), but if you want peace of mind for a ginormous 8-piston jumbo caliper, a lower offset wheel may be needed.
8) More room for negative camber (with bolts): On stock wheel offset, putting on lots of negative camber using camber bolts will eventually cause clearance issues with the suspension, especially with wider wheels (this won't matter to most with daily-driver set-ups, who don't use lots of negative camber). Camber plates on the other hand will affect tilt the suspension with the tire, which removes such issues.
9) More room for wider wheels: Wider wheels allows for wider tires, which improves lateral grip. Problem is, with width enough wheels and tires you'll be rubbing against the suspension. A lower offset provides clearance for your wheels with respect to the suspension.
What's the safest low offset to fit?
This section is where the aesthetic-conscious will probably care the most. So now the big question: what's the safest low offset? The biggest threat to low offset is wheel bearing wear, and since we don't know how durable our bearings are, it's hard to say. But you can play it safe if you're scared of the bearings going out, and stay within maybe 5-10 mm of the stock offset.
In short, there's no real quick answer to say whether something fits. Here are some general factors when considering fitment:
1) How much it's dropped: Dropping your car will change camber, consequently impacting clearance. Lowering your car by default adds negative camber especially to the rear. If you lower the car and lessen camber, that will decrease clearance. More on camber later, as it's very important.
2) How wide your tires are: Tires are also an important factor in fitment, and online calculators don't reflect this. The wheel specs I listed above were to be on the safe side of fitment, and not necessarily ideal. Wider wheels make even narrower tires wider, which is called stretching. Stretched tires give you more room for wider wheels, but also actually make the contact patch wider. For example, 215 tires on an 8" width tire will be wider than 215 tires a 7" wide tire. So just because you keep the same tire size doesn't mean you have the same clearance. As you lower your offset, the wheels are pushed out to the outside--which restricts your tire sizes, as wider tires means it's closer to hitting against the fender.
But there are downsides to stretched tires; wheel widths have their respective ideal tire size. The rule is that you want a wheel width that's 85% of your tire width. Ideal tire size = (wheel width)*25.4 / .85 For 8-inch wheels, for example, that comes out to 239, so 235 width tires. This is because sidewalls are designed to flex in a specific area. Stretching your tires (narrow tires on wide wheels) or pinching them (wide tires on narrow wheels) changes the place they flex, which leads to a shorter tire lifespan. A general rule is, add 10 to the tire width for every half inch of wheel width. OEM is 17x7 and 215, so 17x7.5 is 225, 17x8 is 235, and so on.
To make things more complicated, even the brand of your tires impact how much clearance you have. 225 width Bridgestone RE070s, for example, are wider than 225 width Kumho ASXs even with the same exact tire spec. In short, to say whether something fits isn't always an easy answer (but if it your desired wheel size fits the range of the list at the very bottom, then you're pretty safe).
3) How wide your wheels are: When you get to 9" territory, you'll likely have to do some modifying of the stock specs to have them fit. Widening wheels decreases clearance both inboard and outboard.
4) Wheel diameter has very little impact on clearance. Self explanatory. Going 17, 18 19" doesn't really change clearance.
5) How much negative camber: Camber is a huge deal especially when you get into "aggressive fitments. This info is from Moose, who did measurements by tilting the tire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose
Based on the size of a 215-45-17 (Diameter and width) I tilted a tire in 1/2 degree increments ... and measured the offset differnce from the top center of the tire to the bottom center of the tire.
It is basically 0.21" per 1/2 degree of camber - Keep in mind with camber bolts your are correcting more of the BOTTOM of the tire than the top ..a upper camber plate will have more effect on the amount of movement the tire makes at the fender opening... the 0.21" of change per 1/2 degree of camber is TOTAL change (Top to bottom of tire) so you will see about 1/2 that change measured at the top (fender opening) or bottom
So fender clearance will vary about 0.105" per 1/2 degree of camber change at the fender.
So that's 2.667mm of clearance per 0.5 degrees of camber.
6) You'll eventually bump into the suspension going inboard--go outboard with lower offset The main hurdle for lower offsets is not fender rub--after all, you could always just roll your fenders, or put more negative camber, or even take off your fenders for widebody flairs in most extreme examples.
7) Fender rolling gives 5-10mm of "free" outboard clearance: Fender rolling is when you bend the inner lip of the fender inward, and also slightly bending the fender outward. It does not provide a flared fender look--to do so you'd need to have a body shop modify it. What it does is provide about 5-10mm more clearance. A fender roller could get more, but the more you roll the larger the risk is of cracking your paint.
8) Stagger fitment to address clearance: Since people with low offsets typically also like staggered fitment, I figure it's worth mentioning. Staggered means the front/rear wheel sizes are different. The real reason why cars have staggered fitment is to change oversteer/udersteer characteristics. The side that loses traction first determines understeer/oversteer; if the fronts lose traction first, that's understeer. If rears lose, that's oversteer. Since high-powered RWD cars can oversteer in turns, they use wider wheels and tires to increase lateral grip to the rear.. FWD has no such oversteering issues, and wider rears will make your car understeer MORE. So if you do stagger (and care about performance), put the wider wheels up front, since that is where you need the traction. Your car will thank you for it.
Wider/lower offset front wheels are also desirable since the front has more clearance going outboard. For the 8th Civic, there's maybe 10mm of extra clearance up front. For instance, 17x8 et35 will rub slightly to the rear, but the fronts can take 17x8 et30 easily, especially with a bit of negative camber.
Conservative Fitment Guide
This is a conservative guideline, assuming your suspension and everything else is within stock specs:
7" width-- 35 offset to 55 offset (215 tires)
7.5" width -- 38 offset to 50 offset (225 tires)
8" width -- 40 to 48 offset (225 tires)
8.5" width -- 42 to 46 offset (225 tires)
Note that the list above is assuming normal specs. You can go waaay beyond that. Take for example 8" et40--the lower limit I listed. Add 0.5 degrees of camber, fender rolling and now you can fit an 8" with wheel with 30 offset--stagger and you can fit 8" et22 up front. So you can use the tips and the info above, combined with the conservative fitment guide to get a general idea of whether your desired setup fits.
Whew. That's as comprehensive as I can make.
heb nog wel wat info voor jullie mensen kan je ff lezen
Since low offset wheels seems to be the latest craze, here's a lil guide to offsets. Wrote this up mainly because I couldn't find a comprehensive article on the net about offsets. Those that want a quick fitment guide can just scroll down. Brought my post over with some changes.
Definition: The offset of a wheel is the distance from its hub mounting surface to the centerline of the wheel. The German prefix "ET", or "Einpresstiefe" is used, which simply means offset in German. ET45 (stock Civic) would be a 45mm offset.
Positive Offset: Hub mounting surface is towards the outside of the wheel.
Zero Offset: Hub mounting surface is at the centerline of the wheel.
Negative Offset: Hub mounting surface is towards the suspension of the car past the centerline, creating a deep dish effect.
There are two main issues for wheel clearance:
1) Lower offset: hitting the fender wall. This is what people usually mean when they "rub." Rubbing typically occurs when the wheel/tire is too flush to the fender (or sticking out). This happens when wheel is too low in offset, but also with wider wheels. When the suspension is compressed, the tire brushes against the inside fender wall instead of sinking into the wheel well. Slight rubbing won't kill your tires, but major rubbing will cut and damage your tires.
2) Higher offset: hitting the suspension. You run the risk of having your tires hit the suspension in two ways: too high of an offset and/or too wide of a wheel. The higher the offset, the more the wheel looks "sunken in." And as you go wider in wheel width (while maintaining same offset), the wheel gets closer and closer to the suspension.
I partially disagree with Tirerack's tech article, which says that ideal offset changes with wider wheels: barring clearance problems, the same offset should be maintained, regardless of wheel width. But keeping the same offset as you get wider wheels becomes difficult: the edges of the wheel get closer towards both the suspension and also towards the outside of the car. Since relocating suspension takes some work, this is why people go lower offset to fit wider wheels (which solves suspension clearance issues).
Adjusting wheel offset
Decreasing offset: Wheel spacers: Wheel spacers can only decrease offset. Make sure they're hub-centered, as universal spacers can wear out your bearings and suspension quicker. With a spacer your wheel studs will be shorter, and you'll likely have to invest in extended wheel studs to compensate as well.
Increasing offset: Shaving the back of the wheel hub: You have to be careful with this one, as shaving too much from the back of the wheel compromises the wheel's integrity. With a reputable shop, you can maybe increase the offset by 2-3mm by having them grind down the mounting surface of the wheel. This in general shouldn't be done unless absolutely necessary, however.
Pros and Cons of Lower Offset
1) Looks prettier: Lower offset either creates more a concave look (think M5 BMW wheels), or deep dish look. This is why most change offset, to create that dish/concave look, or to also make the wheels more flush with the fender, making it look more "aggressive." Wider wheels also help to create the look.
2) Scrub radius changes, causing more steering kickback: Scrub radius is the distance between the extended centerline of the steering axis and the centerline of the tire where the tread contacts the road.
For FWD cars the scrub radius is typically negative, meaning steering centerline is outboard of the of the centerline. In the case of lower offsets, this makes the scrub radius more inboard--in other words, the radius moves toward the inside of the car.
On race cars, it's better for the scrub radius to be positive, as it provides more tactile road feedback. So does this mean lower offsets are better? Not always with the Civic, because it's FWD. FWD cars generate more torque steer with positive scrub radius. BUT with the Si it's somewhat of a moot point--the Si comes with LSD, which minimizes torque steer from lower offsets. So without an LSD, very low offsets can be bad, whereas with the Si it's mostly beneficial.
3) Lower offsets put more wear on your bearings: Changing the offset changes the load displacement, and as such it could be wearing down your bearings with a dramatically different offset. I know WRX's have been known for weak bearings, but there's really not much info on the FA5/FG2 as far as what the limits are. Only time will tell.
4) Lower offsets throw off suspension geometry: A lower offset means you're effectively increasing the lever arm, which alters how your suspension responds to the road. That also changes ideal spring/dampening rates.
5) Tramlining: This actually occurs in general with stickier and wider tires, but lower offsets means your steering will tend to lock on to grooves in the road.
6) Increased track: On the plus side, lower offset means you have a wider track. Track is the distance between the centerline of the left and right wheels. Wider track brings more stability esp. in the twisties. Wider track effectively reduces the wheel rate, which will need to be compensated with increased spring rates. BUT a Mac strut suspension has almost a 1:1 wheel to spring rate (VS a Double wishbone with a ~0.85) This means that the Wheel rate decrease due to track width increase on a MAC strut will be less than what you will see with a double wishbone setup. So wider track on a MAC strut setup is pretty effective.
7) Super jumbo Big Brake Kit: Really, a +40 or +42 and 8" is all you need to fit most BBKs (Rotara, Wilwood, Stoptech, etc), but if you want peace of mind for a ginormous 8-piston jumbo caliper, a lower offset wheel may be needed.
8) More room for negative camber (with bolts): On stock wheel offset, putting on lots of negative camber using camber bolts will eventually cause clearance issues with the suspension, especially with wider wheels (this won't matter to most with daily-driver set-ups, who don't use lots of negative camber). Camber plates on the other hand will affect tilt the suspension with the tire, which removes such issues.
9) More room for wider wheels: Wider wheels allows for wider tires, which improves lateral grip. Problem is, with width enough wheels and tires you'll be rubbing against the suspension. A lower offset provides clearance for your wheels with respect to the suspension.
What's the safest low offset to fit?
This section is where the aesthetic-conscious will probably care the most. So now the big question: what's the safest low offset? The biggest threat to low offset is wheel bearing wear, and since we don't know how durable our bearings are, it's hard to say. But you can play it safe if you're scared of the bearings going out, and stay within maybe 5-10 mm of the stock offset.
In short, there's no real quick answer to say whether something fits. Here are some general factors when considering fitment:
1) How much it's dropped: Dropping your car will change camber, consequently impacting clearance. Lowering your car by default adds negative camber especially to the rear. If you lower the car and lessen camber, that will decrease clearance. More on camber later, as it's very important.
2) How wide your tires are: Tires are also an important factor in fitment, and online calculators don't reflect this. The wheel specs I listed above were to be on the safe side of fitment, and not necessarily ideal. Wider wheels make even narrower tires wider, which is called stretching. Stretched tires give you more room for wider wheels, but also actually make the contact patch wider. For example, 215 tires on an 8" width tire will be wider than 215 tires a 7" wide tire. So just because you keep the same tire size doesn't mean you have the same clearance. As you lower your offset, the wheels are pushed out to the outside--which restricts your tire sizes, as wider tires means it's closer to hitting against the fender.
But there are downsides to stretched tires; wheel widths have their respective ideal tire size. The rule is that you want a wheel width that's 85% of your tire width. Ideal tire size = (wheel width)*25.4 / .85 For 8-inch wheels, for example, that comes out to 239, so 235 width tires. This is because sidewalls are designed to flex in a specific area. Stretching your tires (narrow tires on wide wheels) or pinching them (wide tires on narrow wheels) changes the place they flex, which leads to a shorter tire lifespan. A general rule is, add 10 to the tire width for every half inch of wheel width. OEM is 17x7 and 215, so 17x7.5 is 225, 17x8 is 235, and so on.
To make things more complicated, even the brand of your tires impact how much clearance you have. 225 width Bridgestone RE070s, for example, are wider than 225 width Kumho ASXs even with the same exact tire spec. In short, to say whether something fits isn't always an easy answer (but if it your desired wheel size fits the range of the list at the very bottom, then you're pretty safe).
3) How wide your wheels are: When you get to 9" territory, you'll likely have to do some modifying of the stock specs to have them fit. Widening wheels decreases clearance both inboard and outboard.
4) Wheel diameter has very little impact on clearance. Self explanatory. Going 17, 18 19" doesn't really change clearance.
5) How much negative camber: Camber is a huge deal especially when you get into "aggressive fitments. This info is from Moose, who did measurements by tilting the tire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose
Based on the size of a 215-45-17 (Diameter and width) I tilted a tire in 1/2 degree increments ... and measured the offset differnce from the top center of the tire to the bottom center of the tire.
It is basically 0.21" per 1/2 degree of camber - Keep in mind with camber bolts your are correcting more of the BOTTOM of the tire than the top ..a upper camber plate will have more effect on the amount of movement the tire makes at the fender opening... the 0.21" of change per 1/2 degree of camber is TOTAL change (Top to bottom of tire) so you will see about 1/2 that change measured at the top (fender opening) or bottom
So fender clearance will vary about 0.105" per 1/2 degree of camber change at the fender.
So that's 2.667mm of clearance per 0.5 degrees of camber.
6) You'll eventually bump into the suspension going inboard--go outboard with lower offset The main hurdle for lower offsets is not fender rub--after all, you could always just roll your fenders, or put more negative camber, or even take off your fenders for widebody flairs in most extreme examples.
7) Fender rolling gives 5-10mm of "free" outboard clearance: Fender rolling is when you bend the inner lip of the fender inward, and also slightly bending the fender outward. It does not provide a flared fender look--to do so you'd need to have a body shop modify it. What it does is provide about 5-10mm more clearance. A fender roller could get more, but the more you roll the larger the risk is of cracking your paint.
8) Stagger fitment to address clearance: Since people with low offsets typically also like staggered fitment, I figure it's worth mentioning. Staggered means the front/rear wheel sizes are different. The real reason why cars have staggered fitment is to change oversteer/udersteer characteristics. The side that loses traction first determines understeer/oversteer; if the fronts lose traction first, that's understeer. If rears lose, that's oversteer. Since high-powered RWD cars can oversteer in turns, they use wider wheels and tires to increase lateral grip to the rear.. FWD has no such oversteering issues, and wider rears will make your car understeer MORE. So if you do stagger (and care about performance), put the wider wheels up front, since that is where you need the traction. Your car will thank you for it.
Wider/lower offset front wheels are also desirable since the front has more clearance going outboard. For the 8th Civic, there's maybe 10mm of extra clearance up front. For instance, 17x8 et35 will rub slightly to the rear, but the fronts can take 17x8 et30 easily, especially with a bit of negative camber.
Conservative Fitment Guide
This is a conservative guideline, assuming your suspension and everything else is within stock specs:
7" width-- 35 offset to 55 offset (215 tires)
7.5" width -- 38 offset to 50 offset (225 tires)
8" width -- 40 to 48 offset (225 tires)
8.5" width -- 42 to 46 offset (225 tires)
Note that the list above is assuming normal specs. You can go waaay beyond that. Take for example 8" et40--the lower limit I listed. Add 0.5 degrees of camber, fender rolling and now you can fit an 8" with wheel with 30 offset--stagger and you can fit 8" et22 up front. So you can use the tips and the info above, combined with the conservative fitment guide to get a general idea of whether your desired setup fits.
Whew. That's as comprehensive as I can make.
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Delta_lima
- Posts: 695
- Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:33 pm
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm
yep dat rode streepje heb ik nu wel ja..........
maar afdraaien hm dat durf ik niet ben bang dat de velg misschien minder stevig word.
Wat ik trouwens ook las in die tekst is dat je eigenlijk 225 banden moet hebben voor 7,5j brede velgen. waar ik eigenlijk bang voor ben is dat hij gaat rubben...
et 45 scheelt 1,5 cm met oem.....mijn auto is ook verlaagd....het is ff kijken hoe en wat....de velgen gaan er toch pas in de lente erop...
nog iemand interesse in de zwarte tenzo's??? voor een laag prijsje de deur uit
maar afdraaien hm dat durf ik niet ben bang dat de velg misschien minder stevig word.
Wat ik trouwens ook las in die tekst is dat je eigenlijk 225 banden moet hebben voor 7,5j brede velgen. waar ik eigenlijk bang voor ben is dat hij gaat rubben...
et 45 scheelt 1,5 cm met oem.....mijn auto is ook verlaagd....het is ff kijken hoe en wat....de velgen gaan er toch pas in de lente erop...
nog iemand interesse in de zwarte tenzo's??? voor een laag prijsje de deur uit
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm
donkeykong wrote:Geez dude u are hard to satisfy huh????Benjdmin wrote:Dont like the wheels but they will fit just fine...
They have 2 cost between 1600/2000 euro's, it's the only way to earn his respect. :twisted:
Wij normale werkende massa kunnen dat toch niet betalen, indien je natuurlijk wel een huis hebt/wil.
Gave velgen, zag ik jouw niet vorige week zaterdag? bij de Esso richting ring? 8)
Met dank aan een anonieme tip voor de avatar :wink:.
De discussie is al een keer gevoerd en het lijkt me ook niet verstandig er verder op in te gaan.
Om eerlijk te zijn vind ik hoe de spaak in de velg loopt echt niet mooi maar zoals gezegd to each his own. Ben benieuwd hoe het staat.
(De avatar had ik overigens al voor jij de velgen kocht dus niet denken dat ik nu aan het stoken ben gegaan
)
De discussie is al een keer gevoerd en het lijkt me ook niet verstandig er verder op in te gaan.
Om eerlijk te zijn vind ik hoe de spaak in de velg loopt echt niet mooi maar zoals gezegd to each his own. Ben benieuwd hoe het staat.
(De avatar had ik overigens al voor jij de velgen kocht dus niet denken dat ik nu aan het stoken ben gegaan
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm
Angelus wrote:donkeykong wrote:Geez dude u are hard to satisfy huh????Benjdmin wrote:Dont like the wheels but they will fit just fine...
They have 2 cost between 1600/2000 euro's, it's the only way to earn his respect. :twisted:
Wij normale werkende massa kunnen dat toch niet betalen, indien je natuurlijk wel een huis hebt/wil.
Gave velgen, zag ik jouw niet vorige week zaterdag? bij de Esso richting ring? 8)
moet wel er is maar 1 dc5 in almere he
jij civic rype r grijze toch
we zullen wel zien in het voorjaar hoe het staat.....en ja mooi is gewoon subjectief he......de 1 vind het mooi de ander lelijk!!
ik weet niet eens waar ze een replica van zijn, maar zoals jullie weten zijn het allemaal replica's
ik zag nog wel op marktplaats een leuk setje weds, misschien voor iemand hier????
donkeykong wrote:Angelus wrote:donkeykong wrote:Geez dude u are hard to satisfy huh????Benjdmin wrote:Dont like the wheels but they will fit just fine...
They have 2 cost between 1600/2000 euro's, it's the only way to earn his respect. :twisted:
Wij normale werkende massa kunnen dat toch niet betalen, indien je natuurlijk wel een huis hebt/wil.
Gave velgen, zag ik jouw niet vorige week zaterdag? bij de Esso richting ring? 8)
moet wel er is maar 1 dc5 in almere he
jij civic rype r grijze toch
we zullen wel zien in het voorjaar hoe het staat.....en ja mooi is gewoon subjectief he......de 1 vind het mooi de ander lelijk!!
ik weet niet eens waar ze een replica van zijn, maar zoals jullie weten zijn het allemaal replica's
ik zag nog wel op marktplaats een leuk setje weds, misschien voor iemand hier????
Weds liggen nu bij mij :P Zal nog een keertje wat mooie fotos maken. Ben nu aan het bedenken om ze mischien voor eigen gebruik te nemen.
Trouwens, volgens mij hebben wij elkaar gesproken bij de carwash in Almere. Paar chinezen en een neger?
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm
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donkeykong
- Posts: 1466
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm