Olie ITR ....alweer ..tja.....

[slydawg]

Tja, heb zelf ook zoveeel olie verhalen zitten lezen dat ik er op een gegeven moment niet meer wist wat wat was, zo verwarrend.
Heb uiteindelijk zitten kijken wat het meest wordt aangeraden voor de CTR, kom dan op Silkolene Pro S 5w40, welke ik ook al enige tijd mee rij. Voorheen Castrol RS 0w40.
Alle CTR rijders die dus met Silkolene rijden, ook degenen die vaak circuit rijden zijn er zeer positief over te spreken, vandaar dat ik die er nu in heb zitten.

[mr. X]

We kunnen denk ik beter alle merken olie wegstrepen die juist slecht zijn. Daar schieten we waarschijnlijk meer mee op :-)

[roblom]

Dan moet je dus eerst weten wat valt onder het criterium 'slecht' en das nou net het punt. Das niet zo makkelijk aan te geven als het lijkt.

[wilco]

Welke olie is slecht voor een bepaald type van het merk , want wat de één in de andere auto gooit hoeft zeker nog niet de beste olie te wezen in je eigen auto.....

Ik denk niet dat er slechte olieën mer zijn maar het gaat er meer om welke olie het beste zijn eigenschappen achterlaat.
Castrol in een Toyota motor supergoed , in de Subaru alles lijkt sludge te worden .

[wilco]

Heb dit ook op pag.1 bijgezet.

Aanvulling;

*Mobil1 0W40 = PAO

*5W50 Mobil porsche spec = PAO

*Castrol RS 10W60 = Hydrocracked

*Castrol Magnatec 5W40 = Hydrocracked

*Silkolene 5W40 = Waarschijnlijk Hydrocracked

*Motul 300V Competition 15W50 = waarschijnlijk hydrocracked

*Motul 300V Power 5W40 = waarschijnlijk hydrocracked/Pao



Een dikkere olie gebruiken omdat je in de winter de auto minder gebruikt is niet nodig, zelfs een beetje onzinnig. Een 15w/50 is nl dikker bij 100 graden dan een 5w/50, ondanks dat de getallen iets anders doen vermoeden. Dat betekend dat je over de gehele temperatuur-gebruikscurve met een dikkere olie aan het rijden bent, hierdoor kan je overdruk ventiel open gaan staan en een deel van de druk proberen af te vlakken. Het volume dat dan nog door de motor gepompt wordt neemt af en deze kleinere hoeveelheid olie moet evenveel warmte opnemen, dus zal de olietemperatuur alleen maar stijgen.

Blijf gewoon bij een 5w/40 of 5w/50.



Groep 4 plakt wat minder, vooral nadelig als het een seizoensgevoelig voertuig betreft. De eerste koude start na bv 2 maande stilstand, of 4 maanden stilstand is dan een start waarbij de motor echt droog is, terwijl een Hydrocrack, of een gewone mineraal nog een behoorlijke smeerfilm achterlaat. Juist de Groep 4 heeft de beste resultaten bij hoge temperaturen, hoge toerentallen en hoge afschuifdrukken, voor extra “vettigheidâ€￾ wordt er wel wat esters in verwerkt, maar ook weer niet te veel. Daarom is het gewoon moeilijk te zeggen dat deze olie bestaat uit die bestanddelen en die olie heeft weer die en die bestanddelen.

130 of 135 graden is echt niet zo hoog, de koolvorming zal pas optreden boven de 180/190 graden en dan nog alleen onder de ideale omstandigheden daarvoor. In de praktijk weten de oliefabrikanten dit proces goed in toom te houden. Met name 2-takt Olien hebben hier iets meer last van, maar daar staan de Olien dan ook direct in contact met de verbranding van 1000 graden.

[slydawg]

Silkolene PRO-S
Fully Synthetic High Performance Engine Oils
Totally new ester based full synthetic motor oils created to meet the needs of the most discerning user. The products are
suitable for use in all modern cars and are particularly recommended for high performance engines. The full synthetic base
fluid ensures that the products are thermally stable and extremely resistant to oxidation, even when stressed to the extremes
of endurance.

[HONDA]

Die heb ik ook, goede olie en clubkorting.

[Gaskleppie]

Kijk, aan die toevoeging heb ik zeker wat aan!

Ik heb dus een PAO olie, oftewel groep 4
en die eigenschappen zijn:

Voordeel groep IV: zeer goed bestand tegen zeer hoge temperaturen en toerentallen. Nadeel: geen affiniteit met metaal, de olie plakt veel minder aan het metaal, zodat de motor bv droger is bij iedere koude start.

Voor mij perfect! Ik rij er toch geen korte stukken mee, en de rest is perfect voor mijn rijstijl!

[wilco]

Als iemand nog meer vragen heeft , ik stuur ze wel door of als je zelf het e-mail adres wilt hebben...

[slydawg]

Wat meer leesvoer:

Due to the court case in the states between Mobil and Castrol, you may not always be getting what you think you are so be careful, hydrocracked oils are not synthetics in the true sense of the word as they are molecularly converted petroleum oils, synthetics are not, they are built by chemists in laboratories "brick by brick" and are far superior.

Unfortunately, apart from in Germany, a manufacturer can label the inferior "hydrocracked" oils as synthetics and therefore the only true way of working out the quality is price although even this is not certain as there are some very expensive "hydrocracked" oils out there which are sold on their brand name, Castrol is a good example as they were the Company that Mobil took to court over the labelling issues.

Here is some more reading for those interested:

“HYDROCRACKEDâ€￾ (HC) or MOLECULARLY CONVERTED (MC) BASESTOCKS

There are many petroleum oils available on the market that are so pure and refined, they can now be passed off as synthetics.
They are not made from true synthetic basestocks (at least not in the way that synthetics have traditionally been defined), but they have so little in common with traditional
petroleum basestocks, it is really somewhat silly to classify them as petroleum oils.
Petroleum oil basestocks can be put through a super-extreme refining process called
“hydrocrackingâ€￾. In some cases, as in the case of one particular name-brand "synthetic" oil, these highly refined petroleum basestocks can actually be termed and sold as "synthetic".
It is completely legal for lubricants manufacturers to label these oils as "synthetic".

These are extremely high performance petroleum basestocks, but they are not truly synthetic the way that most people understand the term and will not necessarily perform to the same level as a premium synthetic oil like PAO (poly alfa olefins) or Esters.

Hydrocracking involves changing the actual structure of many of the oil basestock molecules by breaking and fragmenting different molecular structures into far more stable ones. This results in a basestock which has far better thermal and oxidative stability as well as a better ability to maintain proper viscosity through a wide temperature range - when compared to a typical petroleum basestock.

Although contaminants are still present, and these are still petroleum basestocks, contamination is minimal and performance characteristics are high. This process also can turn a wider range of crude oil stock into well-performing petroleum lubricant basestocks.

TYPES OF SYNTHETIC BASESTOCKS

Synthetic basestocks are not all the same. There are few different chemical types that may be used as synthetic basestock fluids. There are only three that are seen commonly in automotive applications:

Polyalphaolefins (PAO's)
These are the most common synthetic basestocks used in the US and in Europe. In fact, many synthetics on the market use PAO basestocks exclusively. PAO's are also called synthesized hydrocarbons and contain absolutely no wax, metals, sulfur or phosphorous. Viscosity indexes for nearly all PAO's are around 150, and they have extremely low pour points (normally below –40 degrees F).
Although PAO's are also very thermally stable, there are a couple of drawbacks to using PAO basestocks. One drawback to using PAO's is that they are not as oxidatively stable as other synthetics. But, when properly additized, oxidative stability can be achieved.

Diesters
These synthetic basestocks offer many of the same benefits of PAO's but are more varied in structure. Therefore, their performance characteristics vary more than PAO's do. Nevertheless, if chosen carefully, diesters generally provide better pour points than PAO's
(about -60 to -80 degrees F) and are a little more oxidatively stable when properly additized.
Diesters also have very good inherent solvency characteristics which means that not only do they burn cleanly, they also clean out deposits left behind by other lubricants - even without the aid of detergency additives.
They do have one extra benefit though, they are surface-active (electrostatically attracted to metal surfaces), PAO’s are not “polarâ€￾, they are “inertâ€￾.

Polyolesters
Similar to diesters, but slightly more complex. Greater range of pour points and viscosity indexes than diesters, but some polyolester basestocks will outperform diesters with pour points as low as -90 degrees F and viscosity indexes as high as 160 (without VI additive improvers). They are also “polarâ€￾.

Other synthetic basestocks exist but are not nearly as widely used as those above - especially in automotive type applications. Most synthetics on the market will use a single PAO basestock combined with an adequate additive package to provide a medium quality synthetic lubricant. However, PAO basestocks are not all the same. Their final lubricating characteristics depend on the chemical reactions used to create them.

Premium quality synthetics will blend more than one "species" of PAO and/or will blend these PAO basestocks with a certain amount of diester or polyolester in order to create a basestock which combines all of the relative benefits of these different basestocks.

This requires a great deal of experience and expertise. As a result, such basestock blending is rare within the synthetic lubricants industry and only done by very experienced companies. In addition, although such blending creates extremely high quality synthetic oils, they don't come cheap. You get what you pay for!

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ADDITIVE PACKAGE

Although the basestock of an oil will be a major determining factor in the lubrication quality of an oil, chemical additives play a major part in making sure that it does all that it is supposed to do. The chemical additive package of an oil is just as important to insuring the quality of a lubricant as is the particular basestock used.
The chemical additive package of an oil is designed to perform a number of tasks and each task is performed by a particular type of chemical. The quality of the chemicals used and the manner in which they are blended plays a large part in determining how well the additive package does its job.

As the quality of the additive chemicals increases, so does the price. In addition, proper blending takes a great deal of research. This requires much time and, again, money. Therefore, manufacturers will, of course, charge more for motor oils which contain a high quality additive package than those with lower quality additive packages. They simply can't afford not to.

Each chemical within an oils additive package plays a different role in boosting the beneficial properties of it's host lubricant (basestock).

The additive package must perform the following roles:

IMPROVE VISCOSITY CHARACTERISTICS

Basestock lubricants have a certain temperature range over which they will flow adequately. The wider this temperature range the better. Cold temperature starting requires an oil that will flow well at low temperatures. The higher engine temperatures of todays smaller, higher revving engines requires an oil that will perform well under high temperature conditions.

Pour Point Depressants
In order to improve the flow characteristics of a lubricant basestock at low temperatures additives called pour point depressants are used. Because synthetic basestocks have inherently better low temperature flow characteristics, pour point depressants are typically unnecessary. Therefore, they are normally only used in conjunction with petroleum basestock lubricants.

Waxy contaminants within petroleum basestocks tend to crystalize in low temperature conditions. These crystalized structures absorb oil and increase in size. This leads to oil thickening and poor low temperature flow characteristics. Pour point depressants do not inhibit this crystallization, as is thought by many. Instead, the pour point depressants are absorbed into the crystals instead of the oil, thereby lowering the volume of the crystals in proportion to the volume of the free flowing oil. This helps maintain the low temperature flow characteristics of the base oil even when crystallization occurs.

CHEMICAL ADDITIVES
Higher quality petroleum basestocks have less need for pour point depressants because they have lower levels of wax contamination. However, complete dewaxing of a petroleum basestock is not very economical, so all petroleum basestocks require at least some level of pour point depressant.

Viscosity Index Improvers
As a lubricant basestock is subjected to increasing temperatures it tends to lose its viscosity. In other words, it thins out. This leads to decreased engine protection and a higher likelihood of metal to metal contact. Therefore, if this viscosity loss can be minimized, the probability of unnecessary engine wear will be reduced.

This is where viscosity index (VI) improvers come in.

VI improvers are polymers that expand and contract with changes in temperature. At low temperatures they are very compact and affect the viscosity of a lubricant very little. But, at high temperatures these polymers "expand" into much larger long-chain polymers which significantly increase the viscosity of their host lubricant.

So, as the basestock loses viscosity with increases in temperature, VI improvers “fight backâ€￾ against the viscosity drop by increasing their size. The higher the molecular weight of the polymers used, the better the power of "thickening" within the lubricant. Unfortunately, an increase in molecular weight also leads to an inherent instability of the polymers themselves. They become much more prone to shearing within an engine.

As these polymers are sheared back to lower molecular weight molecules, their effectiveness as a VI improver decreases. Unfortunately, because petroleum basestocks are so prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures, high molecular weight polymers must be used. Since these polymers are more prone to shearing than lower molecular weight polymers, petroleum oils tend to shear back very quickly. In other words, they lose
their ability to maintain their viscosity at high temperatures.

Synthetic basestocks, on the other hand, are much less prone to viscosity loss at high temperatures. Therefore, lower molecular weight polymers may be used as VI improvers.

These polymers are less prone to shearing, so they are effective for a much longer period of time than the VI improvers used in petroleum oils. In other words, synthetic oils do not quickly lose their ability to maintain viscosity at high temperatures as petroleum oils do.

In fact, some synthetic basestocks are so stable at high temperatures they need NO VI improvers at all. Obviously, these basestocks will maintain their high temperature viscosities for a very long time since there are no VI improvers to break down.

MAINTAIN LUBRICANT STABILITY

Lubricating oils are not only prone to viscosity loss over time. They are also susceptible to breakdown due to contamination and/or oxidation which decreases the useful life of an oil. Additives are often used in order to inhibit the susceptibility of a basestock to this breakdown over time.

Detergents and Dispersants
Contamination due to sludge and varnish build-up within an oil can often be one of the limiting factors in determining the useful life of an oil. If this build-up can be minimized and contained, the life of the lubricating oil can be increased. Detergent and dispersant additives are utilized for this purpose. There is some debate as to whether those additives considered to be detergents actually "clean" existing deposits, but at the very least they aid dispersants in keeping new deposits from forming. Detergent and dispersant additives are attracted to sludge and varnish contaminants within a lubricant. They then contain and suspend those particles so that they do not come together to form deposits. The more contamination within the oil, the more additive that is used up.

Since synthetic oils are less prone to leave sludge and varnish, these additives are used up much more slowly within a synthetic lubricant.

Some oils use ashless dispersants which are more effective at controlling sludge and varnish contamination than metallic dispersants. In addition, some ashless dispersants are actually long chain polymers that serve a dual purpose as VI improvers in multi-grade oils.

Detergents are all metallic in nature.

Anti-Foaming Agents
Although necessary for engine cleanliness, detergents and dispersants can have a negative effect on the lubricating fluid within your engine as well. Sometimes, these oil additives can play a part in oil foaming. In other words, air bubbles are produced within the oil. These air bubbles, if not neutralized, will reduce the lubricating qualities of the motor oil. Anti-foaming agents such as small amounts of silicone or other compounds are used to control this phenomenon.

Oxidation Inhibitors (antioxidants)
Oxidation inhibitors are additives that manage to reduce the tendency of an oil to oxidize (chemically react with oxygen). They are also called antioxidants.

The antioxidant reacts with the peroxides in the oil. These peroxides are involved in the process of oxidation. Reaction with the antioxidant removes them from the oxidation process, thereby lessening the chance of motor oil oxidation.

Oxidation inhibitors also serve one more very important purpose. They protect against bearing corrosion. Bearing corrosion is caused by acids within your motor oil. These acids come from combustion by-products, but they can also be the result of oxidation. So, by inhibiting motor oil oxidation, antioxidants also protect against bearing corrosion.

Corrosion Inhibitors
Although antioxidants prevent the acids caused by oxidation, they do nothing to neutralize the acids caused by combustion by-products. Therefore, other additives must be used in order to keep these acids in check and to protect engine components from their effects.
Some corrosion inhibitors are designed to protect non-ferrous metals by coating them so they cannot come in contact with acids within the oil. Other corrosion inhibitors are designed to actually neutralize the acids within the oil.

Anti-Wear Agents
Even with the best of oils there is always the possibility of metal to metal contact within an engine, however slight. Some oils (especially ester synthetics) will cling to metal surfaces better than others, but engines that are left to sit for any period of time may have very little lubricant protection at start-up.

This is especially true in cold conditions when petroleum oils do not pump well. To minimize the engine component wear caused by these situations, anti-wear additives are used. Additives such as zinc and phosphorus will actually coat metal surfaces forming a protective barrier against wear. They do not eliminate the metal to metal contact. They simply minimize the wear that occurs during those instances.

ALLEVIATE COMPATIBILITY ISSUES
Some additives are included in an oil to deal with compatibility issues between the oil and certain engine components. For instance, there are certain types of lubricant basestock that will cause seals and gaskets to swell or to shrink. These effects have to be minimized. Sometimes basestock blending will alleviate the issue, but in other cases additives
might be used.

Depending upon the particular application the oil will be used for, some additives may be left out while others may be left in. For instance, in order to meet API SL fuel economy requirements, oils are now formulated with special friction modifiers. However, these friction modifiers can cause clutch slippage if used within motorcycle oils. So, motorcycle specific oils do not contain these friction modifier additives.

When considered as a whole, Engine oils are comprised mainly of basestock fluids. Only a small percentage of the oil is comprised of additive chemicals. However, addditives can play as important a role as the basestock fluid itself.

A high quality basestock blended with a cheap additive package will be poor oil. A high quality additive package added to a cheap basestock is no better.

Of course, a motor oil as a whole is far greater than the sum of its parts. In other words, even a high quality basestock combined with a high quality additive package isn't necessarily going to yield a great oil. The company manufacturing the oil has to know how to correctly blend those basestocks and additives so that they perform well together.

[Guest]

Ik gebruik mobil super S (uit de makro).
Olieverversing om de 6.000 km.
Na analyse van de olie lagen de slijtagewaarden zelfs lager als die van mijn collega's (opel corsa en yaris) ondanks het feit dat de ITR hoger in toeren rijdt.

wagens : ITR ; corsa ; yaris verso
Fe (ijzer) : 5.4 ; 9.0 ; 75.6
Pb (lood) : 1.9 ; 11.4 ; 0.2
Cu (koper) : 7.6 ; 0.7 ; 6.7
Cr (chroom) : 0.4 ; 0.7 ; 1.8
Al (aluminium) : 3.6 ; 1.7 ; 6.5
Si (silicium) : 4.5 ; 9.9 ; 37.3
Sn (Tin) : 0.4 ; 0.7 ; 0.8

(waarden zijn weergegeven in parts per million; ppm)

ITR : oliewissel na 6.000km (180.000 km op teller) 10W40 olie
corsa : oliewissel na 8.000 km (130.000 km op teller) 10W40 olie
yaris : oliewissel na 15.000 km.

[roblom]

Mjah jouw olie zit er ook het kortst in dus dan is de opname van metaaldeeltjes ook minder natuurlijk

[ITR1689]

En een goeie oliefilter houdt ook wat metaaldeeltjes vast natuurlijk. De filter moet je eigenlijk ook uit elkaar halen en analyseren....

[Guest]

@roblom : Ik wou enkel aantonen dat een hoog-toerige motor niet noodzakelijk wil zeggen dat je veel meer slijtage zal hebben. (Indien de olie er 8.000 km op zit zullen de waarden nog steeds in de buurt liggen van de corsa en nog ruim onder de toegestane limieten.)

@1689: De analyseresultaten geven de concentraties aan van deeltjes die normaal gezien niet door een filter tegengehouden worden.

[Katana]

Ik hou het lekker bij Castrol RS 10W-60. Loopt ze perfect op en een stuk rustiger dan de Castrol TXT 0W-30 die er voor inzat.

@Unicorn_288: Stel je je ook even voor?

http://hotel.messageboard.nl/3633/viewforum.php?f=4